Congrats to the winners of World 2

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DeletedUser

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Quick clarification: Even if moderators had a direct line to CMs (which we do, through skype and obviously we can PM them, which is direct), that doesn't mean that they can influence game settings and world ends. Forum moderators moderate the forums; they don't run the server. Yes, we can suggest things, but that holds as much weight as the suggestion of any other player.
Influence means a direct line and conversation. If you looked at the linked thread, you would discover that SmashNasty refers to where the CMs asked the moderators directly for input on the w3 settings. I don't recall players at large being asked for input, do you? That would imply that they hold more weight.
To add to that, not even CMs choose exactly when a world ends. In the same way that CMs don't choose when a world starts and sometimes don't even get to choose settings, the actual people who handle all of that are the Product Managers. From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong if you know I'm wrong/have proof, CMs can suggest that things happen, not necessarily just do them, and even then Product Managers must approve them.
I'm not sure if you realize this, but it is the job of the CM to represent the world to the product managers and make sure that the players are happy with the decisions, and they are appropriately communicated. This hasn't happened.

1) There can be as many threads as possible, but she said she was "in comparison recently re-reading it". That doesn't say when she read it, how recently was the time before, etc.
False. You didn't even look at the thread she linked, did you? Here's what she said (bold added):
I haven't read all the history. I have had no need to until now.
No where does that say she had read it. No where does that say she was re-reading it. In fact, it explicitly states that she had not read it.
In a month, with the opening of a new world, transferring of power and ensuring that she is properly trained, it's a bit much to expect that she can also get the Product Manager to subsequently agree to end the world.
For 4 months (5?) what have the CMs been doing while we asked about the .net standards?
Ultimately, it's their choice moreso than hers, and most of your post seems full of assumptions, like "which, to me, means that you knew we felt it was time to begin the endgame and didn't care." It's unfair to assume this, especially as it's her job to care.
If it's her job to care, why hadn't she even read our concerns?
She's always expressed concern to me on how to get more players on the forums through competitions and proliferation, how to get more players to the server, and so on. Unfortunately, she can't satisfy everyone at once, it's difficult to handle everything while she is undergoing training, ensuring she is handling all worlds well, and opening a new world.
2) Read 1.
3) Other CMs? There are no other CMs on .us, though I presume you mean a previous CM such as OFLOW. I'm not sure how you can ask her to speak for another CM though :confused:.
Yes, OFLOW was the original CM. It sounds like you would agree he failed to do his job?
Read above. I'm sorry you feel that way, but it's not nearly as easy as you think to get these things accomplished. If you want to take .net as an example (yes, it's different, but everyone seems intent on comparing them anyways), W12 was in a much more dominated state before it closed (the first world to do so).
If you want to take .net as an example, you would discover that there are standards for receiving cheap nobles -- the big thing we were pushing for -- and that we more than met them.
World 12 of .net, the first world to close, had no win conditions for over 3 years (possibly 4) while it was open and more dominated than W2. Just comparing it for all you who are so intent on comparisons to .net.
And it closed before w1, proving that time is not the consideration when making those determinations. So those making that argument before were wrong. If size were the consideration, w2 was the smallest server.
What's truly baffling is that players complain on the forums instead of contacting Innogames directly, circumventing the CM who doesn't actually have definite power over the world ending.
CMs are hired by innogames to represent them to us and vice versa. They aren't doing their jobs.

Nauz: a swing and a miss. In the states, in order to be a volunteer, you cannot receive direct compensation. (Indirect compensation, such as free parking or in some cases, discounts, is allowed). However, direct compensation (such as cash, or some forms of indirect compensation, such as gym memberships) is not permissible -- it removes the volunteer status. Premium Points have cash value (you buy them), and are a form of quid pro quo for volunteering. So legally, in the states? Not volunteers. They could probably sue for minimum wage if they wanted to. Your argument about the soup kitchen proves the point; someone working (employed) in the soup kitchen can still have altruistic motives, but yet be an employee. The fact that they are employed (drawing a salary/wage) does not make them any less altruistic -- but it also doesn't make them a volunteer.

mattcurr: you're missing two big things.
1: We wanted discounted nobles. The world you reference received them under the .net standards, after the population went below 1000 players. We were at 600 (500 or so active players, tops) and still had not received them. At 500, there should have been the second discounted noble option.
2: W1 was closed first. W1 is further from the standard you're trying to apply.
Maybe 3? We also aren't declaring we won. We're declaring that the gamestaff won by convincing us to quit through their sheer incompetence.

u6s: not closing restarts would be fine, if the staff were capable of communicating a path towards the endgame. They are not. That is the issue here. Why was w1 closed? We're told to look to .net, but .net explains why we should have been closed before w1. Why are there no criteria for the endgame? Why can't anyone express a set of criteria?

I guess this is the appropriate time to point out that a profit model predicated around players paying for services in a game, and at the same time telling players in order to win they have to force players to quit is somewhat problematic. I'm sure you can see why that is.
 
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DeletedUser

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not closing restarts would be fine, if the staff were capable of communicating a path towards the endgame. They are not. That is the issue here. Why was w1 closed? We're told to look to .net, but .net explains why we should have been closed before w1. Why are there no criteria for the endgame? Why can't anyone express a set of criteria?

THIS

good god THIS

We would have kept right on trucking, clearing people out for the next year or two if we had been communicated any end game criteria at all in 4 months of asking.
 

DeletedUser

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Thank you for trying to derail the conversation moderator, can you stop that now? It's a violation of forum rules and nothing you're saying has anything to do with the topic.

I edited more into my post, but none of it is off-topic. Speaking of off-topic, aren't your personal attacks on myself and The SmashNasty...?

Influence means a direct line and conversation. If you looked at the linked thread, you would discover that SmashNasty refers to where the CMs asked the moderators directly for input on the w3 settings. I don't recall players at large being asked for input, do you? That would imply that they hold more weight.

Input. Not suggestions. Regardless, that is only on W3 settings. Even if the opinions did hold more weight, which they don't (take a look at this thread, you're being asked too), then that's not to say that all opinions like things about end-game are asked for or regarded.

I'm not sure if you realize this, but it is the job of the CM to represent the world to the product managers and make sure that the players are happy with the decisions, and they are appropriately communicated. This hasn't happened.

Then speak to the product managers directly and express your dismay with the CM's job. However, I'm fairly sure expressing dismay with a CM who has been (as I've been repeating and which hasn't been addressed) addressing a new world opening, being trained, and hiring new staff.

False. You didn't even look at the thread she linked, did you? Here's what she said (bold added):

No where does that say she had read it. No where does that say she was re-reading it. In fact, it explicitly states that she had not read it.

For 4 months (5?) what have the CMs been doing while we asked about the .net standards?

If it's her job to care, why hadn't she even read our concerns?

Yes, OFLOW was the original CM. It sounds like you would agree he failed to do his job?

She said that she had not read them on the 3rd of November. Do you know when she was promoted? The 19th. Within 2 weeks, she was still being trained and still has plenty on her plate. The fact that within 2 weeks she already managed to learn every duty from being a senior in-game mod to running the entire server, and was ready to attempt to tackle this problem, is fairly good I'd say. I don't know if OFLOW did well. I'm not well-versed on that, and I prefer to deal with the present, not the past.

If you want to take .net as an example, you would discover that there are standards for receiving cheap nobles -- the big thing we were pushing for -- and that we more than met them.

And it closed before w1, proving that time is not the consideration when making those determinations. So those making that argument before were wrong. If size were the consideration, w2 was the smallest server.

CMs are hired by innogames to represent them to us and vice versa. They aren't doing their jobs.

.net says time is the consideration for closing a world. For reducing costs of coins/packets, that's something entirely different which, it seems, you want to argue for while Zomgitssara and the rest push for world closing to registrations. If you feel the CM isn't doing her job, take it to her superior at Innogames. I'm not sure why this hasn't been commented on, besides to say "Well, Aliyah didn't say it!"

Nauz: a swing and a miss. In the states, in order to be a volunteer, you cannot receive direct compensation. (Indirect compensation, such as free parking or in some cases, discounts, is allowed). However, direct compensation (such as cash, or some forms of indirect compensation, such as gym memberships) is not permissible -- it removes the volunteer status. Premium Points have cash value (you buy them), and are a form of quid pro quo for volunteering. So legally, in the states? Not volunteers. They could probably sue for minimum wage if they wanted to. Your argument about the soup kitchen proves the point; someone working (employed) in the soup kitchen can still have altruistic motives, but yet be an employee. The fact that they are employed (drawing a salary/wage) does not make them any less altruistic -- but it also doesn't make them a volunteer.

Already answered with my post above.

mattcurr: you're missing two big things.
1: We wanted discounted nobles. The world you reference received them under the .net standards, after the population went below 1000 players. We were at 600 (500 or so active players, tops) and still had not received them. At 500, there should have been the second discounted noble option.
2: W1 was closed first. W1 is further from the standard you're trying to apply.
Maybe 3? We also aren't declaring we won. We're declaring that the gamestaff won by convincing us to quit through their sheer incompetence.

According to your coveted .net standards, W1 should always close before W2, and there is no set criteria besides time even on .net. As for discounted nobles, an entirely separate matter.

us6: not closing restarts would be fine, if the staff were capable of communicating a path towards the endgame. They are not. That is the issue here. Why was w1 closed? We're told to look to .net, but .net explains why we should have been closed before w1. Why are there no criteria for the endgame? Why can't anyone express a set of criteria?

You're wrong. As I quoted, .net says W1 closes before W2.
 

DeletedUser

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Input. Not suggestions. Regardless, that is only on W3 settings. Even if the opinions did hold more weight, which they don't (take a look at this thread, you're being asked too), then that's not to say that all opinions like things about end-game are asked for or regarded.
I must have missed the PM asking me for my input. What's that, I haven't been asked personally? Odd.
Then speak to the product managers directly and express your dismay with the CM's job. However, I'm fairly sure expressing dismay with a CM who has been (as I've been repeating and which hasn't been addressed) addressing a new world opening, being trained, and hiring new staff.
Just for you, I'll do that as well. I'll make sure to link this thread and point out our numerous issues.
She said that she had not read them on the 3rd of November. Do you know when she was promoted? The 19th.
You don't read well. The thread was posted on November 3rd. We didn't receive any response (as we hadn't from the prior 3-4 threads, one each month, and our ingame request) until he intentionally got reported. She posted on November 25th. You can see the time of her post if you look at it. This further reflects how little attention she was paying to the server, since it took her over a month from her promotion to even respond.

Within 2 weeks, she was still being trained and still has plenty on her plate. The fact that within 2 weeks she already managed to learn every duty from being a senior in-game mod to running the entire server, and was ready to attempt to tackle this problem, is fairly good I'd say. I don't know if OFLOW did well. I'm not well-versed on that, and I prefer to deal with the present, not the past.
I'm sure you can agree that there was a lack of communication then, right? Ready to attempt to tackle the problem? How, exactly? By asking us to wait a month to hear back from here? (1 week + 2 weeks!), after it had already taken her 3 weeks to post in the first place?
.net says time is the consideration for closing a world.
While that may be true, .net also closes worlds earlier than previously opened worlds if they're closer to the end. Here's an example: w18 closed before 15.
For reducing costs of coins/packets, that's something entirely different which, it seems, you want to argue for while Zomgitssara and the rest push for world closing to registrations.
If you read the last 4 months worth of threads, you would find this to be incorrect. Sara, myself, and Chance had always been pushing for cheap nobles, not for the world to be closed. We didn't push for the world to be closed until after w1 was closed, because it directly impacted our ability to meet the criteria that we had been given to use as a reference (the .net criteria) for cheap nobles. That was the only communication we had.
If you feel the CM isn't doing her job, take it to her superior at Innogames. I'm not sure why this hasn't been commented on, besides to say "Well, Aliyah didn't say it!"
Sure, we'll also take it to them. That doesn't mean we can't also criticize them.
Already answered with my post above.
I must have missed where you argued that the legal definition of volunteer was anything but.
According to your coveted .net standards, W1 should always close before W2, and there is no set criteria besides time even on .net. As for discounted nobles, an entirely separate matter.

You're wrong. As I quoted, .net says W1 closes before W2.
Except when earlier worlds don't close first. And most worlds close in blocks -- i.e. 49, 50, and 53 all closed at the same time. (hey, that means 53 closed before 51/52. Surprise!)

Additionally, (like I was saying before) what we were pushing for -- for months -- was not the end of registrations, but cheap nobles, which we met the criteria for. It just happens that this makes it easier to qualify for the exemption to get a world closed sooner.

This isn't rocket science. I have yet to see a map to the endgame for .us the way it is laid out for .net.
 

DeletedUser

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As for reduction of packets/coins, I don't think that's necessarily what you're asking for, as I doubt it'd make much of a difference

Here are three different threads where I specifically asked about cheap nobles. One of them even has "cheap nobles" in the title. Don't tell people "you need to read more" when you're not actually reading anything yourself.

http://forum.tribalwars.us/showthread.php?t=3510
http://forum.tribalwars.us/showthread.php?t=3732
http://forum.tribalwars.us/showthread.php?t=3809
 

DeletedUser

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Here are three different threads where I specifically asked about cheap nobles. One of them even has "cheap nobles" in the title. Don't tell people "you need to read more" when you're not actually reading anything yourself.

http://forum.tribalwars.us/showthread.php?t=3510
http://forum.tribalwars.us/showthread.php?t=3732
http://forum.tribalwars.us/showthread.php?t=3809

All three of which are on the first page. as well as this one: http://forum.tribalwars.us/showthread.php?t=3686
 

DeletedUser329

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I'm not going to even touch on half of the misinformation and distortion in this thread.
It seems to have escalated into something beyond what it really should have.
If anyone has any issues with moderation or how matters are handled from this point on please contact me via pm. I cannot change that you have been requesting this information for however long it is. All I can do is move forward from this point and give you the information you are requesting as I said I would.

Please see this thread

<3
 

DeletedUser

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Thanks for following through, I'm sure the us servers will be a lot stronger now that there is a point of reference in place and this frustration can be avoided in the future.

I apologize that you had to inherit this awful mess, I'm sure that's also aggravating. I wish the .us servers the best going forward and I'm sure that even the people that have argued with us for some reason I don't understand are also thankful to have a guide in place as well, and well if they're not then they probably will be once they understand the ramifications.

Me? I registered for school today to finish my network engineering degree and I have 9 advanced math courses in my future to look forward too :( It's too late for me to change my mind.

Good luck Aliyah in the future and good luck us2. You can't say that Sperg didn't leave you with a going away present ;)
 

DeletedUser

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Just to point something out.

W1 closing has no relevance to W2. W1 was closed due to certain criteria being met.
What criteria? The lack of any posted criteria was exactly the issue.
Now, on the topic at hand:

We have a new CM, who has clearly stated that she will look in to this and get a message back hopefully within a couple of weeks at the latest,
Asking people who have already waited 4 months to wait another month is a bit much.
when she saw this thread.
Why didn't she see it earlier, as she was CM?
So, why keep complaining? A few days of waiting for an answer isn't going to exactly do any harm to you guys.
We don't need an answer, Googly. We gave her 5 days from her post, and then we hit delete, and made this thread. We're done, we already crossed that threshold.

Aliyah:
Thanks for posting guidelines, hopefully it makes the issue less stressful in the future for people who choose to play TW.

Unfortunately, this isn't going to make me change my decision.

All the best.
 

DeletedUser

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I removed my post - I mis-read a comment made earlier. The issue was cleared up it seems - and you seem to be under the delusion that as soon as someone becomes CM, they immediately read the entire of the forum in full. Instead of learning all the bits and pieces that they have to do as the CM.
 

DeletedUser

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Very nice, I'm glad to see there are now some goals in place. I wish you all the best of luck, may not even be all that far off when all of our towns go barb in a couple more days leaving nice big gaps for whoever is left to take over (yes, not changing our minds just b/c we finally got what we wanted, don't worry).

/Hoppus
 

DeletedUser

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I'm not going to bother with the misinformation either, I can tell that after the personal insults hurled the way of myself and other staff, it's simply not worth it. All I'll say is, after all this pain and all these arguments, the guidelines went up earlier than expected and you all got what you wanted. Congrats.
 

DeletedUser

Guest
I'm not going to bother with the misinformation either, I can tell that after the personal insults hurled the way of myself and other staff, it's simply not worth it. All I'll say is, after all this pain and all these arguments, the guidelines went up earlier than expected and you all got what you wanted. Congrats.

I'm glad you won't be spreading any more misinformation, because I was getting tired of it.

I'm also glad that guidelines went up. I would point out (since you seem to be unable to read) that this thread was us leaving the server (and for most of us, the game). None of us are going to cancel our deletes because it went up -- but it is sad that it took us deleting in order to get an answer after 4 months.

I'd also point out to Googly that the world forums are more or less completely inactive, particularly world 2, and it wouldn't take any effort to glance at the only active threads (which would be us asking about end conditions). It would probably take a grand total of an hour to read the entirety of the w2 forum. You could do the first page -- which includes 4 threads of us asking about win conditions. Maybe 5? In 10-15 minutes. And the moderators should probably be passing important issues (like us continually asking about them) to the CMs to respond to, rather than waiting until it becomes a big issue.
 

DeletedUser

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I removed my post - I mis-read a comment made earlier. The issue was cleared up it seems - and you seem to be under the delusion that as soon as someone becomes CM, they immediately read the entire of the forum in full. Instead of learning all the bits and pieces that they have to do as the CM.

She was an in-game moderator before she became CM and yes, it's actually not unreasonable at all to expect the person being put in charge of managing the community to actually be aware of the community.
 

DeletedUser

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I'm glad you won't be spreading any more misinformation, because I was getting tired of it.

I'm also glad that guidelines went up. I would point out (since you seem to be unable to read) that this thread was us leaving the server (and for most of us, the game). None of us are going to cancel our deletes because it went up -- but it is sad that it took us deleting in order to get an answer after 4 months.

I'd also point out to Googly that the world forums are more or less completely inactive, particularly world 2, and it wouldn't take any effort to glance at the only active threads (which would be us asking about end conditions). It would probably take a grand total of an hour to read the entirety of the w2 forum. You could do the first page -- which includes 4 threads of us asking about win conditions. Maybe 5? In 10-15 minutes. And the moderators should probably be passing important issues (like us continually asking about them) to the CMs to respond to, rather than waiting until it becomes a big issue.

The misinformation comes from the assumptions you've provided, nothing more.

destroyman, in-game moderators aren't required to read the forums.

In addition, it's unreasonable to expect them to read the entire forum to be "aware of the community" in the short time since she's been trained, promoted, hired new staff, and opened a new world.
 

DeletedUser329

Guest
Like I said this really isn't a big an issue as a few people are making it out to be.
It's not really worth my time arguing with you about even.
I saw the thread, said I would respond and I have.
Delete , because you didn't get your end game goals when you stamped your feet ? mm ok . Bye .

The top tribe don't even have 40% dominance on this world. All those who are shouting their mouths of because they didn't get what they wanted when they wanted it I am not interested in.

Those remaining now have the end game goals requested. Good Luck to those who are sticking with their tribes for the remainder of World 2.

<3
 
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