Discussing the internal/merge rule

[Dase]

I think in the last few days we've all seen how the new rule can mess things up for legitimate internals. How do you guys feel about it? This rule won't change if we don't request it and a stupid rule combined with the incompetence of some mods has a very negative impact on the gameplay for both major sides involved in world 63. This situation needs to be addressed.

@kawoni would it be possible to train the mods a little better so they aren't so quick on the ban button? So many players get banned by mistake and are unbanned later, but if the ban comes during an op the impact is massive and it just doesn't feel right to play with people's time like this. Meanwhile, people who are actually using multi accounts are not banned and it's frustrating to see how quickly you ban a legitimate player but ignore the obvious bots. This needs to change.

@community, feel free to share your thoughts on the new rules regarding internals and how mods should deal with them.

 

[bluex]

I agree 100% with Dase as he brings out a valid point. The internalizing has become a chore, ridiculous and another of the myriad of reasons affecting game play to the point of driving legitimate players such as myself to leave the game. The indiscriminate banning affected 3 of my long time players, Dukes in other worlds no less with 5 years PLUS of game play under their belt. Two of which are leaving the game at the end of the present world. That banning occurred during a legitimate APPROVED internal, when a prenobling went awry. During the banning, villas were lost to the enemies who had reported the cross nobling to the mods and the players were banned till it was sorted out. It was not only frustrating, but inane. To this day that player says the mod picked sides, not a good look in the least and also not returning. When banning a player becomes a tool for indiscriminate enemies to use the BAN. it weaponizes the moderators and creates ill will to not only the mods but the game itself.

 

[kawoni]

Thank you both for starting this conversation. And you know we can not discuss bans or player accounts or punishments or types of punishments on the forums.
The rule was put into place because a group of players had to ruin it for all the others. Sadly, we hate to implement more rules but in order to stop the issue then we must follow the rules and if those players are not following the rules then we must provide the punishment. You also must remember that we need evidence to ban players and sometimes the evidence shows that a player looks like they are multi. or whatever the offense is at the time. So, we must ban and upon appeal the player explains the situation and things are resolved and accounts released.
Now, I am not saying that we are not human and we do not make mistakes because certainly we do, everyone does. But, normally believe it or not the mods are pretty good with what the rules are and reacting to them.
We are always open to discussion, feedback and most importantly solutions. We do not want a huge grumble fest but an open discussion is fantastic and encouraged.

 

[Dase]

The procedure should be changed. You cannot shoot first and ask questions later. If wrong bans would be 1% of the cases, sure. But they are not. In fact, most recent bans were wrongfully given. In this situation, mods should contact the player and have them explain the situation before banning them. If you ban a player while there are 100 trains headed to their villages, it won't matter his explanation, not if you reply in 24 hours.

Also, if some people would be wrongfully banned it wouldn't be so much of an issue, as long as actual cheaters get banned. We could be ok with some collateral damage, but when obvious botters get away and players who sent the ticket according to the procedure get banned... It's a whole different scenario and it's not ok for the legitimate community.

I'm really curious what is in the mind of a mod who bans someone for internalling a player that they've been given approval from by the same mod most likely. If it was a push acc, why was approval given from the start? Why do we even ask for approval if all it takes is the enemy to report and it's an instant ban? There seems to be no thought process in the mind of a mod who does that. The mod replied to a few of my tickets and it's been so slow... Getting approval from you is instant, from that dude we have to send too much information and he replies too slow. Mods on this server are braindead. I'm sorry I have to generalize and use this kind of words to describe mods, but it's simply the truth for most of them. You can't have stupid rules and stupid mods at the same time if you expect this game to have a decent player base in the years to come. At least have stupid rules and smart mods or smart rules and stupid mods, but both just can't work.

 

[kawoni]

Thank you for that Dase, Please leave names out of the context. It is your assumption that the bans are incorrect, and we have tools and evidence to prove otherwise. We have guidelines to follow and if the investigation falls into those guidelines then we must ban. And at times our system flags things for us and we are in the middle of an investigation before a player sends in a ticket. And we conclude the investigation and ban. And then answer the player that reported the players 2 mins later, So at times it looks much faster then it really is.

We as a game and I do not know really, any other game that is going to go to players and ask them what the issue is or why they are cheating and wait for an explanation. Because, for one, most of the time we would not get an answer and would have to ban anyway. For 2, We would get told to go away (in not so nice words) and we would have to ban anyway. 3. We would get told lies and things that do not match our tools so we would have to ban anyway. I can keep going but those are just a few.

We just can not run around asking players if they are cheating. We would investigate and if we find enough evidence then we would ban and then the appeal process starts. Nothing has changed about how we ban or investigate. What has changed are a few rules. So lets touch on those for a bit. Why do rules change? Because, a group of players cheat and keep cheating and ruin it for everyone else. So we have to change the rules to stop those players from gaining an advantage. And, yes, cheaters that have to win by cheating continue to cheat. As players most of you know who the cheaters really are, the ones using the illegal scripts and bots etc. and the ones that require us to add more rules. My question is, Do you really win a game by cheating? Do you really win? Is that fun? Why not use your skill and have fun which is what the game was meant for. To bring people together to have fun.. and Rules are no fun.

You also have to remember most of the mods including myself have jobs outside of InnoGames, We get to the tickets as fast as we can, We do not sit in front of the computer, watching the support system, waiting for players to report other players just to ban people much to your disbelief. LOL We do not have scripts to automatically push the ban button for us... LOL Hmmmm, I wonder if we can do that? (note to self ask Devs if we can get an automatic banning button).

So, now how about some solutions to the issues that you are describing? How do we as a Community correct or move forward?

 

[Dase]

"It is your assumption that the bans are incorrect, and we have tools and evidence to prove otherwise" -If you have the tools and evidence to prove otherwise, how comes all the players banned by this specific rule were unbanned?

"So at times it looks much faster then it really is." - It rarely looks fast, but I understand mods are not full time employees. It just sucks to wait 24 hours to receive an answer that has nothing to do with your request sometimes. Maybe inno should replace mods with a bot.

"We as a game and I do not know really, any other game that is going to go to players and ask them what the issue is or why they are cheating and wait for an explanation. Because, for one, most of the time we would not get an answer and would have to ban anyway." - Most games are not live in the same way tribalwars is. I believe mentioning other games is against the rules, but in many games, a temporary ban means you don't play for a little while. In tribalwars, the impact of a ban is bigger, if a mistake is made on the mods side, the cost for the player is way bigger than in most games.

"As players most of you know who the cheaters really are, the ones using the illegal scripts and bots etc. and the ones that require us to add more rules. My question is, Do you really win a game by cheating? Do you really win? Is that fun? Why not use your skill and have fun which is what the game was meant for. To bring people together to have fun.. and Rules are no fun." - Exactly, we know who really cheats. Those players remain unbanned while people get banned for this stupid rule, and then they are unbanned. Why even unban if they broke the rules? You're contradicting yourself.


This rule needs to be changed. No gifting in the first 30 days is ok. But after 30 days, internals should be normal. People quit, you can't enforce rules to prevent pushing when they don't seem to have any effect on pushers, but they do have a big impact on legitimate players. Until this rule is changed, I will submit a ticket every time the enemy internals, if the enemy continues to report us. Hopefully, they do the same, and eventually your team of mods will get tired of having to deal with this useless rule.

 

[kawoni]

As I stated in my first reply to this thread We are NOT going to discuss other players and their bans or punishments. We will not discuss other players or their accounts for any reason., There are many reasons for players to be unbanned. and we will not discuss them with you and we will say that a Successful appeal can be reached in most cases.
It is not against the rules to say "games", or say "other games" because we are not being specific about any one game, it was said to explain a situation. We can agree to disagree. There is always a risk of getting caught cheating at any game and having to suffer the punishment.
If you know who the cheaters are why not noble them? Keep them from playing, noble them from every world? A player can be unbanned for a successful appeal, You can appeal your ban and have a successful appeal which would result in a player becoming unbanned., that is not contradicting. Stupid rules are still stupid RULES and we must all follow the rules. Put, the blame for those stupid rules where it belongs on those that caused those rules.
We will share your feedback and suggestions with our Devs Thank you, Dase, for the honest comments and feedback.

 

[Dase]

You're asking the community to noble the cheaters instead of the mods doing their job and banning them. Can we make a deal kawoni? Next world I start with 100 accounts to pp farm, I move it all to my main account and on world 66 I start to play for real, with push accounts, farmbots, timer scripts and then you don't ban me, ok? Ask the community to noble me.

I am not asking you to talk about specific bans, but we can all see some players were banned and then unbanned. That means that the ban was not correctly given. I guess it was a mistake to open a topic about it, it's the same answer all the time..

 

[kawoni]

No Dase, please do not do that, We understand what you are saying. The issue is you and I mean universal you. Do not always see or know everything we see And we can not tell you what we see and know because we are bound by privacy laws and our rules. But, just because a player is banned and then unbanned does not mean it was a mistake. It means there was a rule violation that we saw and upon appeal it was sorted and explained why they can not do the things they were doing or whatever the case is and then unbanned.
If what you are saying then is that every ban is a mistake because eventually we release or unban all the players in some way shape or form. I can not get technical with you and tell you about our tools because then you would know how to get around our tools.
I am asking the Community to noble those players they see as cheating. Why not? This is Tribal Wars right?
We can not make all players happy all the time, We can do our best with the tools we have to chase the bots, chase the illegal scripts. it is none stop because as soon as we remove one another is made to replace it and it starts all over again. And that does not mean that we do not try to grab those new ones as fast as we can but that is not always possible right away, Our Devs, work on a bunch of different things for the game. They work hard to give us the tools to find and look for those new bot/scripts.
It is not a mistake to open a conversation about the topic. It helps us understand the continued impact it has on our community. And, hopefully an understanding into our side, the little of what we can share. I am truly sorry that we can not share more with our players and let you guys really know what happens behind the scenes.. This is the feedback we ask for. And I will share with the Devs. They need to know these issues and how the players feel. It is part of our jobs as mods to let the Devs know.
Thank you Dase, we appreciate you.